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GMEV and CYC - The UKs Awful Recharging Network

9K views 51 replies 19 participants last post by  Sandy 
#1 ·
We've continued to have really terrible experiences with the @CYC network. Not a single charge has ever been without issues. Today it seemed like we were going to have to leave our cable locked in a CYC charger (though luckily we eventually managed to get it out).

I've posted all the details of all the (many) issues we've had here on my blog:

GMEV and CYC - The UKs Awful Recharging Network

I'd be curious to hear others peoples experiences...
 
#6 · (Edited)
I had exactly the same pathetic sign up problems with source east. Basically, the only problem on your list that i have not encountered is the incorrect map locations, but that is because I use plugshare etc.

None of the networks is fit for purpose.
I haven't had anything like these issues with Ecotricity or Polar (I have had some issues with Polar causing BCIs on ZOE). There is no reason for a network to be this unreliable.

Aren't @CYC an open network? It's not their charge points. I guess they're reliant on the charge point owners making sure their maintenance is up to date?

I guess it's like blaming Shell because an independent station selling their fuel has a broken pump.
That's a poor analogy. Shell are not involved in pumping petrol from the tank to your car and have no visibility of the process failing. In all of the issues listed, CYC have been *directly involved* in the problem. Many of them didn't even include the chargepoints (like the £1 charge, the inability to login, the security issues with the app, the lack of logging of failed charge attempts, not allowing retrying of ending a session, allowing cables to be locked indefinitely, etc.).

Wouldn't it be better to log the issues with them directly and help them resolve the issues, rather than blog it?
I've contacted CYC *many* times via email and twitter. Some of these are mentioned and linked in the post. The responses were poor in all cases, which is why I posted. If they won't do anything about these issues, then I feel it's only fair to make others aware of them. I go around singing the praises of EVs, and it would be unfair for me not to do the same with these issues - I do not wish to have people buy an EV on my recommendation and then unexpectedly hit problems like these. It's far better to share publicly.
 
#5 ·
Aren't @CYC an open network? It's not their charge points. I guess they're reliant on the charge point owners making sure their maintenance is up to date?

I guess it's like blaming Shell because an independent station selling their fuel has a broken pump.

I've had a few recent dealings with CYC as mentioned on some other threads and the issues were sorted within days. Also when a brand new charge point was playing up they switched it on for me so I could charge and no bill has appeared on my account for that occasion.

Wouldn't it be better to log the issues with them directly and help them resolve the issues, rather than blog it? Working with them will ensure all BEV and PHEV owners benefit from a more improved network.
 
#7 ·
Interesting about the £1 'validation'. I also was spuriously charged £1, but it wasn't related to any validation at the time I signed up. I originally signed up sometime in late 2014; the spurious charge appeared on my card statement sometime in February, round about the time I was on a trip trying to use some CYC points.

I wasn't 100% sure it was related to CYC - the billing reference was "Electromot" - and I didn't get around to querying it, but I got a £1 refund on 4th June (maybe I've got you to thank for that!).

My CYC experience wasn't good - first location with a single point couldn't get a charge at all, second location with 2 double posts (4 sockets), one post totally dead, one post delivering half the advertised rate (3kW instead of 7).
CYC helpline were surprised at my problems at the first site (though I was there on weekend and couldn't speak to them at the time as helpline not open), but when called about the second site (Bath) you could feel the helpline guy's frustration at a site with lots of problems he couldn't do anything about.
 
#9 ·
but it wasn't related to any validation at the time I signed up. I originally signed up sometime in late 2014; the spurious charge appeared on my card statement sometime in February, round about the time I was on a trip trying to use some CYC points.
Did you by any chance have to re-add your card details via the app around this time? It seems to have been an issue with the apps taking the charge; the card details added via the website didn't cause it.

I got a £1 refund on 4th June (maybe I've got you to thank for that!).
Great; I'm glad to hear they did issue refunds even to those that didn't report it! :)

My CYC experience wasn't good - first location with a single point couldn't get a charge at all, second location with 2 double posts (4 sockets), one post totally dead, one post delivering half the advertised rate (3kW instead of 7).
CYC helpline were surprised at my problems at the first site (though I was there on weekend and couldn't speak to them at the time as helpline not open), but when called about the second site (Bath) you could feel the helpline guy's frustration at a site with lots of problems he couldn't do anything about.
It's a shame to hear I'm not alone in my experiences. I would argue @CYC *can* do things about these. If they bothered to log failed charge attempts they could contact the chargepoint owners and tell them when their points aren't working well, threatening to remove them from the app/maps if they don't resolve the issues. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation :(
 
#8 ·
No joy on one time I wanted to use (and pay) a CYC Rapid in York, App would not start it up. I won't recommend a BEV to anyone yet, well not for leisure trips outside the normal range.
 
#11 ·
I am sure as per @MoonCat that cyc are not actual the network provider, more of a 'reseller'. For example my cyc card works the source east chargers. In fact, my cyc card works source east charger that my source east card does not operate!

I agree that ecotricity is becoming reliable but lots of us have had problems with them too. I don't recall finding a working polar unit on my travels.

I think the root cause is unnecessarily complicated charge points. There is no need for all the complicated RFID cards and remote networking. Old fashioned coin operated relay would do for me ...
 
#13 ·
You clearly know the problems and how to resolve them. Why not set up your own network for the benefit of EV drivers in your area?. Improving on CYC model you could have fabulous back office systems and also ensure that charge point owners were fully upto date on maintenance.

CYC would seem to be one of the better ones but if you can better then with ease, then you're on to a winner :D

Alternatively, maybe the reality isn't as simple as charge point owners just providing power and nothing else, and I'm sure CYC have much more on their plate than sitting in their office playing pocket billiards.
 
#15 ·
I'd be curious to hear others peoples experiences...
I've had a GMEV/CYC card for a year and have had 42 charging sessions. Generally I have found the network to be more reliable than the other networks. It's a pity they don't have more rapid chargers.

I avoid using the app as I had some difficult experiences with it in the beginning.

Some of the charging stations are awkwardly sited and the Salford Royal stations wouldn't read my card. Ross on Wye is very slow (15A).
 
#17 ·
I use CYC points on a weekly basis, and they have been among the most reliable of any of the operators I have used.

One side of the charge point had chewing gum wedged in it once, but it was fixed in about 2 weeks- could have been quicker.

And the RFID works with the Ecotricity rapids, which is great.
 
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#19 ·
Man, I've not had a problem in a year!

The Scotland trip had a few troubles but I can see @CYC have sorted their act out up there.

The only real troubles I've had have been to do with vandalism, which the network operators can't protect against without making charging prohibitively expensive or reducing accessibility.

I don't get what this is all supposed to do @DanTup , it all seems unnecessarily negative.
 
#24 ·
I think the root cause of a lot of trouble is the "app". As a software developer they are the bane of our life. Because so many "Apps" are free, those in charge assume they must be quick and simple to develop. Which means the time to develop them is way below what it needs to be, especially given the obscure and poorly documented nature of the actual environment.

So lots of Apps are flaky and dodgy.

Add in the mess at the backend and it's a recipe for dropped communications and integration problems.
 
#25 ·
I think the root cause of a lot of trouble is the "app"
The problem isn't "the app", as the "pay by phone" has exactly the same reliability issues (actually, worse). The weak link is the comms between the CYC server and the chargepoint. The problem is that the service hasn't been written with the poor network connections in mind enough, so it doesn't wait long enough before giving in, and doesn't allow things to be retried that it should (such as requesting the thing unlocks your cable!).

If their network is this bad without RFID, then they should only allow RFID. It's what Polar and Ecotricity do, and they have always worked fine for me. Telling people they have the option to use the app or pay-by-phone when it's so unreliable (and could be costly if you get your cable stuck) is just going to lead to frustrations and give EV charge infrastructure a bad name.

That said; the comms issues are only a portion of the complaints listed in my blog post; there are many other failures on CYCs part that everyone seems to be ignoring.
 
#31 ·
I really don't want to hijack but when I was looking at these before I bought the first Zoe they installed batteries in the boot and it only charged from 3pin mains plug.

My requirements are for 100-mile cars a 43kWAC rapid charger and for 200-mile cars a 22kWAC fast charger.
 
#33 ·
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your email and tweets and tagging us on here. I have replied to your email but, as this is something you’ve flagged up in public, I think it would be remiss of me not to post the reply here also.

First of all, the problems you’ve have had with the App. We’re a little hamstrung here as our App was built by a third party who still retain most of the administrational rights for it so all changes need to go through them and be made on their side of things. When you first reported the email problem this was immediately sent to them to correct. I will also make them aware of the App security issues you have flagged up but I assure you that both CYC and our developers are fully PCI Compliant.

The mistakenly taken £1 pre-auths – I use the word mistakenly because I think ‘fraudulently’ is quite harsh – thank you for flagging this is up us. As we told you at the time, this was a problem in the way the app had been set up with Paypoint and when someone registered their card an error in the code meant that Paypoint counted it as a transaction and not a pre-auth. As soon as you flagged this up we reported it to the developers and after a fair bit of troubleshooting the problem was identified and rectified. CYC then retroactively went through and refunded everyone who had ever signed up their £1 – Including me, so thank you.

You will be pleased, I’m sure, to know that we are currently building a new App in-house that will hopefully solve a large amount of these issues and improve communications between the app and post. We (or I at least) are happy to admit that the App isn’t great atm. It’s sticky, it lags, it’s clunky. Previous management were keen to be first to market with the app and so a lot of mistakes were made that will hopefully be corrected in the new version. The wireframes for the new app have recently been signed off and so we hope it will be ready by late September, however this is dependent on how many cups of coffee and cans of energy drink we can pour down Joe.

RFID Cards attached to wrong accounts – This has happened on the odd occasion unfortunately but has been rectified as soon as it’s been flagged up. CYC Applications are processed by a member of the team here and, as is always the way, human error can occur. As much as I’d like to delete my colleagues, I do enjoy their company on occasion and so I have asked them to be far more vigilant. As far as charging drivers for usage that isn’t their own, please rest assured that any charges levied in error will be removed and ANY money taken in error will ALWAYS be refunded in full as soon as it’s flagged up. You seem to be under the impression that we’re out to stiff drivers and take their money – I can categorically say that this is not the case. We’re actually quite nice people.

RFID Cards. You hate RFID cards, I hate RFID cards, everyone hates RFID cards. Unfortunately though for funding to be issued for a charger, it NEEDS to have a unique access method so its usage and EV uptake can be monitored. There is currently no way around it – Although we are looking into alternatives. As such, we offer RFID cards priced at £20 per annum. Transport for Greater Manchester do subsidise RFID Cards for drivers within their remit, this was done as a way of encouraging EV uptake in the region and the cards are priced at £10 ONE OFF. As you can imagine, a lot of people would rather pay £10 one off than £20 per annum and so we get drivers from outside of the region trying to register (Holland being the furthest so far) If we get an application from outside of the region but close to Manchester (such as yourself) we ask TfGM about the application. As we explained to you at the time, they confirmed that you fell outside of their area.

We did say at the time that you could apply for a CYC Access Card if you wanted and we explained to you why we could not give you one for free in the same way that other networks do. The income generated by Access Cards (actually very little when you take away the VAT, cost of the card, postage and admin time) is directly used to help fund the CYC Helpdesk and our Out of Hours support – Something which we DO NOT wish to withdraw. Sorry to jump to another point, but it seems to lead on nicely.

The problem you had this weekend with a trapped cable. You are correct, the main CYC office is closed at weekends. At present we operate 08.00-18.00 Mon-Fri. Outside of these hours we operate an emergency support number. This is a member of the CYC team with a mobile phone and laptop who, no matter what time of night or day, is available to aid stranded drivers. If you call the office number you will hear a message stating that the office is closed but if you have a trapped cable please call a number. Had you of called that number, the member of staff on call this weekend would have been more than happy to stop what they were doing and release your cable, as I'm sure the other drivers that called this weekend can testify.

Just so we’re clear, the staff member on Out of Hours only has limited access to systems and is only there for releasing trapped cables. However we never knowingly leave a driver stranded. There have been many, many occasions where we’ve started sessions, reset posts, directed to nearby chargers, helped non-CYC members get a charge etc… The reason the phone does not simply direct to the team member is in an attempt divert what we’d deem ‘non-emergencies’ to business hours, for example, a call at 5am because a driver couldn’t remember their Apple ID.

Incorrect charger locations and blank numbers – This is hugely disappointing. When a CP is commissioned the installing engineer takes a lat/lon reading from the post and send it to us. If this is incorrect, we’re in trouble from the get go. As you can imagine we don’t know where each of our chargers are, we’re based in Brighton and I haven’t even set foot in Manchester for years, so we rely on correct information from others. The same goes for parking information. The CYC site showed what we were given. As for the stickers, I am looking into why these haven’t been applied at the moment. I assume they were and some hilarious child removed them. Clearly we need to rethink how we number our Charge Points if they can be removed so easily.

Regarding the failed sessions at various Charge Points, if your starttransation message was reaching our servers, there would be a record of it. If it hasn’t reached us, we don’t know about it. By the sounds of it, it looks like you’ve had several occasions when, for whatever reason, the starttransation has not made it to our server. We’re looking into why this is but for the time being I have removed the chargers at Hulme Street, Bury Market and Media City from the App. Looking that the records from last week there were a number of successful charge sessions, started by the App, at the Trafford Centre and I know this is a popular location so these have not been removed at present. Again, we hope that the new version of the app will solve a lot of these issues but it’s worth mentioning that last week the CYC estate clocked up 762 Charging Sessions started with the App. 43 of which were in Manchester.

Lastly, I’d like to thank you for reporting these problems to us and I hope the fact that I’ve given such a thorough and frank reply will go some way to convincing you that we do actually care. I’m sure this thread will rumble on and I’ll do my best to keep an eye on it whilst in the office (my wife has banned me from all work related activity in the evenings now) but we’re a very small team and we may miss some comments. If there is something you, or anyone else, wants a specific comment on please tag us and we’ll do our best.

Thanks
CYC
 
#38 ·
FWIW we've just using @CYC GMEV posts for over a year. It's been generally reliable and the few problems not marked on the web site have usually been down to the charge point not providing status back to the CYC. The Elektromotive posts still report ok even when the MCB has tripped, though I'm told this is fixed on the newer versions.

But yes we use cards. I figure you can afford £20 per year and if you have a problem with that, take it up with Cheshire council. Good luck with that, given the pricing scheme on the chargers they're installing!

On the bad locations, just let them know.
They've fixed one or two problems for me in the past but they're not telepathic!
Personally I'm really not complaining about the 1.6MWh I've got for free.
 
#45 ·
@CYC thanks for the email and post here, I appreciate you taking time to respond. I've posted the email on my blog with a link from the original article to ensure your response is easily discoverable (I presumed this was ok, given you'd posted effectively the same text here).

I figure you can afford £20 per year and if you have a problem with that, take it up with Cheshire council. Good luck with that, given the pricing scheme on the chargers they're installing!
That's East Cheshire... As far as I can tell, West Cheshire haven't even bothered (despite this two-year-old post saying they would install some, inc Hooton and Ellesmere Port stations!). We do have a 3-pin socket at Vauxhall (LOL! it's not even clear it you're allowed to use) and M&S recently had their charger upgraded to a 7kW charger. GO US!

several years ago Transport Scotland demanded that all grant-funded chargers default to giving a charge to any seemingly-valid RFID card when comms is lost, yet this is STILL not happening!
Interesting to hear this. I was told the GMEV chargers definitely do this, but now you're making me question this... I definitely wouldn't want to spend money on an RFID card to find I still can't get charges due to comms issues. @CYC can you clarify? (I specifically only really care about GMEV).
 
#39 ·
I'd be curious to hear others peoples experiences...
I signed up on-line for a GMEV card. Never got the card.

They did a test charge against my debit card so I know the web app did something.
 
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#41 ·
I found my login details and checked the account. For some reason the order for the card is showing as cancelled.

??



Order
Item Quantity Price Total
Card auto-renewal first time offer 1 £0.00 £0.00
GMEV discount 1 -£10.00 -£10.00
Access Card 1 £20.00 £20.00
Total £10.00

Order Status
Status Cancelled
 
#43 ·
I must admit to having some issues with the way that the @CYC network runs, and also with some of the details (some of them major - like the fact that several years ago Transport Scotland demanded that all grant-funded chargers default to giving a charge to any seemingly-valid RFID card when comms is lost, yet this is STILL not happening!)

However, I have to say that the response @CYC has posted here is really encouraging. I'm not sure what more we could ask for. Oh yes I do.... defaulting to free-vend on comms loss! ;)
 
#44 ·
Hi Matt

We've been in talks with the different manufacturers about doing this as it requires a firmware fix on their side, it's nothing CYC can push through. Talks have been (very) slow and it appears to be an expensive process so what we've been doing is working with them to upgrade all existing Rapid Chargers to OCPP version 1.5. This allows us to push a whitelist to a unit meaning that if it does drop, it will check the internal list of CYC cards. Work on the upgrades starts this week. So, whilst it's not the 'allow any card' fix as such, it will (hopefully!) fix the issue of drivers unable to charge without comms.
 
#48 ·
Ah - I have been told be people that at least a couple of makes have defaulting to free-vend as an option already, but there is so much confusion in this industry that this may well be wrong.

Being an engineer that has spent a number of years programming embedded systems I would so love to write charger firmware - and get it right! You would even get remote firmware updates and when comms was down sessions would be stored locally and uploaded later when comms return! Ooh! Stop me before I start dreaming of giving up my current job and starting a charger company.
 
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