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Kia calls for more government investment in hydrogen

Discussion in 'General Kia EV Discussion' started by dpeilow, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. dpeilow

    dpeilow Militant EV driver!

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  2. Matt Beard

    Matt Beard Still Driving an EV!

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  3. Hairy Leafer

    Hairy Leafer Active Member

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    from nothing to 1.6 million hydrogen cars on Britains roads in 13 and bit years :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
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  4. Jack

    Jack Moderator

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    Doesn't everyone?
     
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  5. Jasmin

    Jasmin Active Member

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    I don't get it. Kia have a lovely car and solid tech in the Soul EV that they have clearly put considerable thought and effort in to, what with their nice high-density batteries and all. Why taint it with waffling about The Fuel Of The Future(tm)?
     
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  6. Matt Beard

    Matt Beard Still Driving an EV!

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    There is a lot of grant money to suck up from H2!
     
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  7. Jack

    Jack Moderator

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    It still doesnt approach the density of petrol/diesel or the theoretical density of H2 - thats why they continue to research it and why it should be funded. Personally, I don't see much future of H2 in Light vehicles, but heavy vehicles I can see the application.
     
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  8. Siraff

    Siraff Well-Known Member

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    That. A fuel cell would be far nicer to follow than the usual 38 tonner. Localish delivery lorries that are too heavy and/or need too much range to be realistic ev's would benefit massively. Well they wouldn't but the local area they go round would.
     
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  9. dpeilow

    dpeilow Militant EV driver!

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    Given that the electric bus company Proterra has just released a 600 kWh, 350 mile range model whose battery is the size of a double mattress (i.e. not that big for the capacity) I don't even see the application in commercial vehicles. Such a battery can easily be accommodated under the bed of a truck and for trains it's even less of an issue. Even the price is acceptable for absorption in the cost of an HGV.

    On the other hand a fuel cell that can put out the sustained horsepower needed for an HGV will make the one in the Mirai look like a bargain.
     
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  10. JWilde

    JWilde Well-Known Member

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    Why won't it die?! Maybe the next gen of EVs will finally kill it, but I have a horrible feeling it's going to be like Hinkley C, they will approve it at the last minute and waste millions building a retarded network of half working hydrogen stations which will be obsolete before they are even turned on (with local councillors standing in the photos looking pleased with themselves).

    "Hydrogen is the future I saw it on a 7 year old episode of Topgear repeated on Dave".
     
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  11. BlackLeaf

    BlackLeaf Well-Known Member

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    Double Mattress size? That's not much bigger than the Tesla pack? Certainly not six times bigger. I wonder how big a Proterra 60kWh pack would be (hmm, logically about 1/9 to 1/10 the size of a double mattress ... so would fit under the rear seats of most cars ... )
     
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  12. Hairy Leafer

    Hairy Leafer Active Member

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    That sounds very promising but I expect the EV HGV will be a niche for quite a lot longer than cars. Even though the majority max out on volume before they hit their weight limits its not always the case and big battery would loose them quite a bit of flexibility both in that and in recharging times. Time off the road is time not spent making money, whilst busses tend to spend the night parked up in depot the same cant always be said for trucks that might have multiple crews.
     
  13. dpeilow

    dpeilow Militant EV driver!

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    I'd imagine 3x the thickness and probably twice the surface area.
     
  14. pbceng

    pbceng Chartered Engineer Speak EV Supporter

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    Interestingly I participated in a forum discussion this week on the future direction of the automotive industry. At one point the question was asked "Will FCEV's exceed 5% of vehicle sales in the next 15 years". No one said yes! This was a group of industry professionals including representatives from Tier 1, OEM, R&D, Analyst and Journalist backgrounds.

    PS: I was one of the ones who said no!
     
  15. BlackLeaf

    BlackLeaf Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting to understand the reasoning behind the answer though. It could range across

    a) Never going to bring the cost down
    b) Never going to achieve the long-term reliability (Are current Fuel Cells lasting 100,000 miles?)
    c) Never going to be able to build out the infrastructure

    to

    d) Not intended to ever do anything other than divert investment from alternatives (BEV, PHEV, whatever) while we keep making regular petrol and diesel cars

    Or it could just have been good old fashioned head in the sand I guess!
     
  16. Siraff

    Siraff Well-Known Member

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    I would love to see something that size with 600kWh but even if they can make something so compact that's still a very long way from powering a full on HGV.
    Lets say 1000l diesel tanks as a fair average (some are well over double that). At 11.1kWh/l that's 11,100kWh. They have massive tanks because they spend 4.5 hours at a time lugging anything upto 44 tonnes about with a 45min break to the next 4.5 hours. Presuming the usual double/triple crew they run this almost constantly.
    Having a battery that can just about take a bus (usually 8-12t) 350 miles wouldn't even cover the first stint on the first day.
     
  17. pbceng

    pbceng Chartered Engineer Speak EV Supporter

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    Hi @BlackLeaf it was all of the first three plus a few others. No-one was actively anti-fuel cell as far as I could tell and the consensus was that for stationary power, heavy commercial (road and shipping) then they were possibly a good viable solution. The general view though was that for automotive use within 15 years they weren't going to fly.

    Other reasons were
    • storage of hydrogen becomes more of an issue with smaller tanks
    • production of hydrogen from renewable sources is too expensive to be viable commercially against natural gas reformation
    • the fuel cell stacks are much better when large - automotive ones are too small and don't perform well
    • Current fuel cells need heavy subsidies to be even remotely competitive
    • an FCEV is a hybrid so is akin to a REX EV - why not drop a small generator in instead and make it mass market
    I don't think any of the participants had any direct involvement in fuel cells though, so you have to factor that into the views expressed. If there'd been a representative from Toyota or Hyundai's fuel cell team then we might have seen some more positive views.
     
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  18. BlackLeaf

    BlackLeaf Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that - good to get insight into their minds. Fascinating to see the thinking and I agree completely that if you are building an FCEV you may as well build a BEV + ReX. You could even run the ReX on hydrogen (or methanol) if you still wanted to be odd ...
     
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  19. pbceng

    pbceng Chartered Engineer Speak EV Supporter

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    To be fair I also pointed out that although the efficiency of conversion is very low and the setup cost for hydrogen generation from renewable electricity very high, it's still worth doing if the overload energy is used. In other words if the solar panels or wind turbine feed the grid as much as it can take, and only use any excess to generate and store hydrogen it becomes a net benefit. I think there's at least one of the filling stations in London set up to generate hydrogen from a wind turbine.

    Of course you could then use the hydrogen to power a stationary fuel cell to convert the excess hydrogen into electricity and feed it into the grid when the capacity increased to supply EVs - it would be more efficient than using it in an FCEV still I suspect :D
     
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  20. JWilde

    JWilde Well-Known Member

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    A few years ago Smith Electric had a set up with a battery swapping station for HGVs. I think it was just an experiment. I'd bet that is worth looking at again, HGVs might be the perfect model for the battery swap thing.
     
  21. BlackLeaf

    BlackLeaf Well-Known Member

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    It'd be the same problem as charging stations though - not in the right place unless you flooded the country with them. Just possible that a big fleet operator with a contract to do, say, all Tesco deliveries on fixed routes and schedules might be able to work something out, however, most need flexibility.
     
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