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Oops! CYC charging £1 at signup (supposed to be pre-auth)

8K views 64 replies 14 participants last post by  Andy Parr 
#1 ·
We noticed that the £1 pre-auth CYC made when we signed up at the weekend was not a pre-auth at all.. (this is one of many screwups we've had with them lately).

It's only £1, but this seems like a pretty shady mistake to me. I wonder how many other people were affected?
 

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#3 · (Edited)
Hi Dan

Apologies for this, I've no idea what happened but I'll investigate when I get back into the office tomorrow.

I can assure you however, that there is nothing 'shady' going on.

I just had a look through your other thread and just wanted to clarify a few things. CYC does run, on behalf of TfGM and Bristol CC, GMEV and Source West. These are schemes administered by us In their behalf.

They have both, as you've seen, subsidised access cards to encourage EV take up in their local areas. As much as we'd like to subside cards for drivers everywhere we unfortunately can't.

The reason we charge for our access cards is to cover the cost of the card, the VAT, the postage and the admin time to process the applications. CYC is a private company with no outside and so we cannot provide free access cards to our drivers.
 
#7 ·
Dear me, sorry. I did of course mean 'nothing shady going on' The perils of writing on an iPhone on a train.

Dan, I'm sorry you feel like that. If you want to send over an email detailing the problems you've encountered I'll do my best to correct them
 
#8 ·
Dan, I'm sorry you feel like that. If you want to send over an email detailing the problems you've encountered I'll do my best to correct them
I already included most details in an email to Julia, but here's a summary:
  • GMEV card advertised as £10/one-off, turns out not to be true (it's annual)
  • GMEV card advertised without any restrictions on where you live, turns out we're not allowed one (we live in Cheshire, just near Manchester... being able to charge when visiting is probably more convenient to us than those that live there and probably have home chargers!)
  • Web app let me sign up with a + in my email address (a prefectly valid character), then attach card details, but then the mobile app wouldn't let me login due to the + (why your Android app is even validating email addresses at login time, I have no idea, never mind the validation being wrong). I had to wait for your staff to update my email address to be able to access my account.
  • Putting a % in the email address in the Android app gets past the validation that stopped the +, yet generates an error (and shows the details to the user). This looks mighty fishy to me, and could be exploitable (suspect an encoding issue; this should've given the same message as any other email address not found
  • You charged us £1 after saying it was pre-auth only
  • Your app's API is flaky. When we tried to charge, every other button press in the app gave a "500 server error" message and we had to keep retrying (our mobile signal was fine, and a 500 response from a server is not as a result of a bad connection to the server, it's a server-side error)
I'm sure there are other things that frustrated us, but those are the things I remember. We signed up because there are limited charging options in Poole (we're taking a holiday there next month), but we feel so let down by the service (and the fact you want £40/year for us to be able to charge reliably with an RFID card) that we're going to make do with the app and have our accounts closed when we return.

We've used Ecotricity chargers loads without any issues and both Ecotricity and Polar provided RFID cards for free (although we had to add credit for Polar, we get to use that credit on charging). If we'd been able to get the RFID cards as advertised (£10/lifetime) we would've handed £20 over for two easily (and we'd use your chargers). As a result of the above, you'll sadly get £0 and we won't after our holiday in Poole.
 
#11 ·
I recently had a random £1 taken from my credit card, despite having paid for the RFID card. It didn't seem worth complaining given the amounts involved. I will however be more concerned if I'm charged a renewal fee, given that this isn't made clear on the website.
Also, my parents, who live in Cheshire and also have a Leaf, attempted to order a CYC card through GMEV, and were rejected on the basis of their location. However, a return trip to Manchester's just outside the Leaf's range, and so they have a greater need for public charging than someone who lives in the city centre...
 
#12 ·
I only cared because everything else had been so shoddy (unable to login due to poor coding, app terrible unreliable, restrictions not mentioned on GMEV site, incorrect advertising as one-off fee). I can't believe a company can not notice that they're charging customers money unexpectedly (and if they charged you out of the blue, then it seems even more suspicious than the mistake of a charge vs a pre-auth as we thought it was)...

Really poor.
 
#13 ·
I've had the card for a while, but I think the £1 charge corresponded to trying (unsuccessfully) trying to use the app to start a failed charge remotely (albeit on a free charging location). I agree that the iPhone app is terrible, but I rely on the RFID card at least once a week to get home, and I've yet to return on a flat bed :)
 
#15 ·
I think it could be when you add card details to the app (which seems somewhat disconnected to the web app), as my wife got the charge but I didn't (I only added card details via the web app, as I couldn't login to the app).

Sounds pretty poor. I wonder how long this has been going on? @CYC should be automatically refunding all of these; can't imagine it's legal to be charging people's cards without permission like this :-/
 
#16 ·
Thanks all for bringing this to our attention. I've been through the banking logs and I definitely can't see us taking the £1s so I've not got a clue it's happening for some drivers. We're looking into it though and, of course, anyone whose has anything wrongly taken will be refunded.
 
#17 ·
Kinda worrying that you can't find these...?! Julia found ours very quickly and refunded it.

I believe it's only happening for the mobile app((s) - Android at least). For some reason the app seems to handle its own payment (and not use the card details from the web app), and it seems to be when adding them this happens.
 
#18 ·
@CYC Continued to have a poor experience with your chargers today...

We drove to Manchester, expecting to take the kids to the Museum of Science & Industry...
  1. Your map shows a charger called "Hulme Street". There is indeed a charger on Hulme Street, however on your map, it is shown on a completely different road (River Street). It took us many minutes of driving around (River Street is one-way) trying to find the charger. A picture showing this charger (blue, on the left) and where Hulme Street actually is (to the right) is attached.
  2. Your website and app clearly state "Parking free of charge" for this charger. However there is a clear sign next to it that says "Electric car charging, must pay and display at machine". A picture showing the "free parking" note is attached (unfortunately we did not take a picture of the sign next to the charger, because we were frustrated and trying to find a charge).
  3. This charger appears to have a poor mobile signal, because we failed to start a charge for over 10 minutes. Our mobile signal was fine and the app worked fine retrieving lists of chargers etc.. The step that always failed was the one that connects to the charger and starts the charge.
Because of this experience, we ended up leaving Manchester and heading for the Traffod Centre instead because we had barely any charge and knew there were significantly more chargers there. After the experience at Hulme Street, we didn't dare try the other chargers nearby for fear of them failing for the same reason, and us not having enough charge to get anywhere. This is the first time between our two cars in almost three months we've ever had to leave a charger without charging (all but one of our previous charges have been with other networks).

When we got to the Trafford Centre (with 2 miles of charge), we had the same frustration trying to start the charge for 10 minutes, before the app eventually managed to connect to the server (again, our signal was fine, this was the connection to the charger). Fortunately, we managed to get a charge.

We really want to be happy with CYC/GMEV, but with the terrible experiences, and being told that despite frequently visiting Manchester we can't have a card for the advertised cost, it's becoming increasingly difficult. We've never had these sorts of problems with any other charging network.

I'm now trying to find out whether the RFID card would resolve these issues (even though I'm incredibly reluctant to pay £20/year when every other network is free, and we've not had issues with theirs), but can't find any information on whether your charger still needs its connection to your servers to start a charge (eg. to verify the RFID card is live). There's absolutely not point having the RFID card if it doesn't remove the weak link, which is your own chargers data connections. Really, you need to work on this. I've always told people that say EV infrastructure is ready that they're wrong; but now I really couldn't recommend an EV around Manchester with the state of your chargers.
 

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#19 ·
On Reliability of data connections, this isn't necessarily the problem in the instances you described OCPP as it stands is a massively buffered protocol to deal with poor signal, this makes its very slow to respond when you issue it realtime commands, the Round Trip is massive, Phone to Server, Server to Point, the latter may also include a call across different backend systems to finally get to the point intended. RFID tags are generally loaded onto the GW device or local to the point periodically allowing completely offline use if configured to, I have never had any problem with my CYC RFID, so much so I have never tried the app.

Also the reality is you/us/we are on the bleeding edge here, and the kinks are nowhere near being ironed out.

Finally do you use plugshare? Does that show the correct location, if not I am sure there are many of us who would appreciate it if you corrected the location.
 
#20 ·
I don't use PlugShare I'm afraid. I did check ZapMap, which has the correct location (and claims to have come from NPR), so I'm kinda surprised CYC's own site is bollocks. Checked both the app and the website, and they're both showing it, so not just a weird issue on one :(

I understand the complications in having these devices communicate, but that's no excuse for something to be so unreliable. If it's so bad, why can't I use NFC from my phone with the app? Or why can't the timeout be longer?

It's interesting you think the chargers might have the RFID IDs cached offline. I hoped this would be the case, but given how shoddy this whole thing has been, I would just be really surprised. It's also possible if the connection times out, they just always allow the charge (seems like a reasonable failsafe). I'd like confirmation of this from CYC before I'd pay for a card though.
 
#21 ·
It's interesting you think the chargers might have the RFID IDs cached offline
Its not a thought, they do. But it depends how the points are setup to how they do it, some periodical sync the database, some sync manually, and some only cache tags they have seen before.

why can't I use NFC from my phone with the app?
It wouldn't make it any quicker, first rule of software never trust the client. Even if you had NFC that said "Honest I am who I say I am give me a charge" it would still require verification from another source.

they just always allow the charge
This depends whether they are paid for or not, if its a free point it doesn't really matter I have seen points accept any old RFID tag and work. If its a paid for point it really depends on how the operator feels/is comfortable with recovering the session information. The protocol allows for a cached data transfer in the case of comms problems.

Its likely CYC have the wrong Co-Ords in the database, its easily done if they did from a postcode rather than a recorded position.
 
#23 ·
Seems like this post might have the answer:

System-wide Charging Station Software Update Could Cause Problems Next Tuesday For EV-Owning Brits - Transport Evolved

all Elektromotive and SGTE-branded units will continue to work as normal, regardless of if you’ve visited them before or not. Charging points made by APT, DBT, Chargemaster and Siemens Charge Points however — which include everything from 32 amp, single phase Type 2 charging stations up to 50 kilowatt DC rapid chargers — will only work if you’ve visited them before.​
 
#24 ·
I've used the Manchester chargers using the RFID card.

I have had exactly the same problem with the App and a % symbol in the password. I reported this last year. Never fixed. It's possible to login to the web site but not to use the app. iPhone this is.

I was in Cirencester on Sunday and would have liked a charge. Card worked but screen blank. This would have been a great time to start the charge with the app. But no couldn't login.

Reported this fault again to @CYC. Private company maybe but service and fixing issues is bad.

Cirencester is a bad example and not their fault the council has put it in a dark off street location that is subject to vandal attack.

Having said that they just charged me for a second year. I'm thinking that's not what it said when I signed up. May have to review. Admin charge year on year when I am charged £4.50 for a 1 minute connection.

Having read the above I am tempted to spend some time preparing a case.
 
#27 ·
Having said that they just charged me for a second year. I'm thinking that's not what it said when I signed up. May have to review.
I'm told it used to be a one-off fee, and now is annual. GMEV are still advertising £10/lifetime, and failing to mention your order gets rejected if you don't live *inside* their area (even if you're just a few miles away). Seems mighty shady to me to change from a one-off fee to an annual one and then start billing people that signed up before changing!

The only reason I'm considering a card is because the app is so flaky and there are so few places to charge in Poole where we're holidaying. However, since the only CYC charger we'd use is a rapid that costs £4/charge (and its AC is offline being fixed this week because it didn't work with a ZOE!), it's not starting to seem like a good buy. Might just stick with Polar.. slower charges, but at least they'll probably work!

Use plugshare - really. It helps everyone else see in real time who charged and when. Then you would know if someone used it yesterday or today it's more likely to be working. Ok nothing's 100% except interrogating the actual unit and I think Ecotricty is doing that in beta.
For this to work, wouldn't I need to be loading an app and recording that I charged? There's enough hassle trying to get a CYC charger working without having to record it elsewhere ;(

Also, the info won't be reliable if the person that used it the day before might have an RFID card that was cached! ;(

I am really surprised that we can have chargers with such unreliable network connections. My mobile phone fits in my pocket, moves around and has power restrictions, yet has a reliable connection. These chargers are at known fixed locations, in huge boxes that could have huge antennas, unlimited power and yet they can't reliably connect?
 
#28 ·
The connection is very rarely the real issue except most are GPRS and not 3G/4G, its the round trip times round the infrastructure that is the real problem when you scale up slightly, OCPP whilst well intentioned is over engineered, it would have been better just to use text messages with encrypted payloads in a request-response type scenario - its far more reliable.
 
#29 ·
The connection is very rarely the real issue except most are GPRS and not 3G/4G, its the round trip times round the infrastructure that is the real problem when you scale up slightly
Whatever the underlying reason, not being able to communicate with the chargepoint in 60 seconds is poor. These aren't old hardware being converted to be used as EV chargers, these are purpose-built machines being installed at known locations. There is absolutely no reason they could not be made to work reliably.

And if they can't make them work reliably, then they should use NFC or similar. Or, like very other network, give the RFID cards away free. Why don't they realise that the more people that have their cards, the more attractive their network would be to new properties wanting chargers? If I was a business wanting a chargepoint, I'd go with the one that is easiest/cheapest for EV drivers, and CYC seems to be at the opposite end of the scale!

Oh, something I forgot to mention too, the Hulme Street charger has no location number on it. I tried to start the charge by phone, and it asked for a Location number, and sticker was completely blank (not just worn off, like those at Trafford Centre; it had never been written on). I realised when we got to Trafford Centre I could've git it from the app, but just shows how much care is going into these things.
 
#32 ·
NFC requires the unit to be connected to something, so its not a get out of jail free card. UK wireless networks are not that great, and vary wildly - download speeds etc are not important for these applications latencies are, which wireless has always been bad with. However, like I said the round trip time is the killer in the system as it stands.
 
#34 ·
NFC requires the unit to be connected to something, so its not a get out of jail free card.
Not true. I can transfer a 1MB digital photo from one device to another via NFC in just a few seconds. Passing an encrypted payload from the phone that can be decrypted or verified (via a signature) by the unit.

eg.: Phone connects to CYC server (the phone is some sort of supercomputer that can do do network requests without timing out, unlike the chargers), requests a start charge. Server returns encrypted (or signed) payload. Phone passes that to the charger via NFC, decrypts/verifies, starts charge. You could even have the charge unit pass data back to the phone (and therefore to the network) and the unit could function without its own data connection at all.

What makes you think the units in the EVSE aren't small and low power too, just because they are static doesn't help them out much.
They may be, but if that's the reason they're unreliable, then that's a massive design flaw. They have (effectively) unlimited power and are in a huge metal box. Being static means their mobile reception shouldn't vary wildly like a mobile phone. The signal can be tested before and after installation. British Gas wouldn't install my homecharger without a decent O2 connection; they had the foresight to test it.

My mobile phone has a tiny battery, tiny footprint and maintains a stable connection. If a huge box that never moves and that has ample power can't keep a connection, someone somewhere has done their job incredibly badly. Even if for some reason mobile connections were poor (which they are not, and if they picked GPRS over 3G then again, that's their choice/fault!), then the app/protocol should have reasonable timeouts. We're not talking about a SLOW connection here, we're talking about FAILURE to charge. If it's known to be slow, it shouldn't be giving up after 60 seconds (or whatever).
 
#35 ·
The charger is always going to be doing the verification not your phone or any other intermediary device that the network owner has no control over, which still means comms from the unit controlled by the unit, you will never lose that requirement.

Your phone maintains connection yes, but it doesn't maintain a good enough connection to do reliable comms all the time even if its static - I know I have written tracking software that piggy backs on GPRS/3G. Your phone/phone network is optimised to maintain signal for when you use it, not a permanent or semi-permanent connection.

It really isn't an easy problem to solve, what works for one site doesn't work for another. I will concede however sites that could have easily had a fixed line gateway installed should have as much of the comms problems could have been mitigated.

You have to remember a lot of sites were installed in the OLEV gold rush which left no time to actually consider these problems properly, the money had a time limit.
 
#36 · (Edited)
The charger is always going to be doing the verification not your phone or any other intermediary device that the network owner has no control over, which still means comms from the unit controlled by the unit, you will never lose that requirement.
It is entirely possible to securely communicate via a third party (this is exactly how SSL works).

Your phone maintains connection yes, but it doesn't maintain a good enough connection to do reliable comms all the time even if its static - I know I have written tracking software that piggy backs on GPRS/3G. Your phone/phone network is optimised to maintain signal for when you use it, not a permanent or semi-permanent connection.
Phones keep constant connections all the time; else your calls/texts wouldn't come through! And push notifications on iOS (not sure about others) are handled via long-running connections.

You have to remember a lot of sites were installed in the OLEV gold rush which left no time to actually consider these problems properly, the money had a time limit.
This is exactly what I'm saying. The problem is poor implementation, not that the problem is hard. These things have been installed over years; there's no excuse for them to be this bad now. The whole thing is a joke. And FWIW, CYC seem to have FAR more issues than any other network I've noticed.
 
#39 ·
Kinda worrying that you can't find these...?! Julia found ours very quickly and refunded it.

I believe it's only happening for the mobile app((s) - Android at least). For some reason the app seems to handle its own payment (and not use the card details from the web app), and it seems to be when adding them this happens.
I got charged the £1 using the app on my iPad, so I should not have is that right !
 
#45 ·
I also added my card details to the @CYC app over the weekend - and found a £1 charge on my credit card.
So it's still happening, despite @CYC being informed over a week ago :-/

Are @CYC still claiming this is only affecting some users? Seems like too many to be only "some".
The only response is:

Thanks all for bringing this to our attention. I've been through the banking logs and I definitely can't see us taking the £1s so I've not got a clue it's happening for some drivers. We're looking into it though and, of course, anyone whose has anything wrongly taken will be refunded.
I'm somewhat sceptical they're looking into it, and suspect it affects a lot of people. Given their lack of information; if I hadn't already had it refunded, I'd be reporting it to my banks fraud department. It's unacceptable to charge people and tell them it's only a pre-auth - many might see it on their statement and just assume it'll be taken back off.

If the payment is being taken directly by the Android app (I don't know this is the case), then it likely won't be fixed without an app update (which there's no guarantee will be installed by all), so I hope it's done server-side :-/
 
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